الثلاثاء، يوليو 03، 2012

Tip of the Iraq war iceberg

True story


هناك 40 تعليقًا:

   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال المؤلف هذا التعليق.
   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
Marcus يقول...

Look at the proportions in the illustration. The upper three fields 4000, 11000 and 29000 are roughly proportional in size compared to the figures they represent. The fieldd representing 11.000 is slighly twice as big as the one representing 4.050 and the one representing 29.000 is about three times as big as the one representing 11.000.

The lower two fields are also roughly proportional. The field for 4.5 million is about 3 times larger than the one for 1.1 million. Not a perfect match but still not an outrageous margin of error.

But look at the difference when we move from American to Iraqi casualties. The field representing 1.1 million Iraqis is only about 3 times as large as the one for 29.000 Americans when it shouldd be 37 times as large to be proportional to the figures.

Seems like in this illustration an American is still worth at least 12 Iraqis, even if it is an illustration that supposedly tries to shine a light on the massive Iraqi suffering in the war.

I thought that was rather telling.

Marcus يقول...

To put it another way. in the picture, above the surface of the water there are two "peaks". There's the one that holds the text "4.050 US Military deaths", then on the right hand side there's another smaller section. See that peak above the surface on the right just next to the boat? That'd be about the size of the total US figures for deaths, suicides and wounded if it would have been a correct portion of the illustration (~0.8%). The rest should've been Iraqis.

Zeyad يقول...

Lee, the 1 million figure represents excess deaths as a result of the war, and the actual figure reported was 150 so thousand killed (still an outrageous number) and judging from experience that the media and health minister usually reports about 10% of actual casualties then a 1 out of 30 iraqis killed since 2003 is not so farfetched. Every Iraqi family has been affected and has had at least one victim.

   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

If one assumes these figures are current(and accurate) as of today, then they are the result of the invasion of Iraq by the US and its allies and the sectarian war that ensued in the aftermath.

To only put the onus on the US would be to ignore the deeper problems in the ME. Or put another way, if we were the only cause of violence in the ME then you would not be seeing the bloodshed in Syria today.

I am not saying that we did not kill people in Iraq, what I am saying is that civilians were deliberately targeted by their own countrymen as well, to the extreme detriment of Iraq and its social cohesion.

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

Lee,

“The decision was political, not legal, which reduces its value as a precedent,” Barnett said. It was obvious Roberts had to stretch to reach his decision, he said, “because the reasoning was so tortured” — and that tortured reasoning undermines the decision.

Oh for heavens sake! That is so the pot calling the kettle black!

Robert's, and any other judge for that matter, reasoning should be meticulous. Calling it "tortured" is hyperbole.

Talk about feeding frenzy! The pundits are going to live on this story for quite some time.

   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

Oops, sorry Lee, that was from your link in the previous comments section. In the comment before you talked about the polling data.

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

This did not happen in my state, but it was close. The heat has been just as bad here.

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

Zeyad,

Have you gotten settled in?

   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
Marcus يقول...

Lee: "I probably would have ascribed the variations is the ‘size ratios’ (calling it that for lack of a better term) to the need to get a large enough field to contain the text included."

Possible. But the 3'd field is way larger than what would be needed to fit the text.

Lee: "Maybe you could share with us what ‘tells’ you that the more callous reasoning you discovered was instead at work there?"

I thought it was callous to visually portray 45K US victims as 1/4 of the total victims when they are in fact less than 1% (of the figures presented).

You seem to think it's A-OK as long as there's a reason such as fitting in a text. Well, I guess we'll have to aggree to disagree. I thought it was callous (good word there, I wouldn't have come up with that one myself).

   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
Marcus يقول...

Lee: "You just assumed this ‘callousness’ was put evidence by an Evil Merkin or an Evil Merkin Lackey and not by some anti-Merkin peacenik, why?"

Where the hell did you get that idea from?

I said as much before: "even if it is an illustration that supposedly tries to shine a light on the massive Iraqi suffering in the war"

I'm quite certain (not 100% but 99%) the illustration was made by someone who opposed the war in Iraq. Someone who wishes to highlight the casualties and point out Iraqis suffered more. Still, the illustration is pisspoor because it still vastly misrepresents how Iraqis were the main victims and overstates the US casualties (and disregards completely US allied casualties).

But my main point is that, whoever made the illustration, they have visually equated 1 dead american to 30+ dead Iraqis. Callous.

   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

*sigh*

Seems like in this illustration an American is still worth at least 12 Iraqis….

This wasn't a swap or trade. It's not about value, but about the effect the conflict in Iraq had on those involved.

Our media had a tendency to track how many American's were killed, without looking at the other casualties, giving their reporting a rather superficial appearance. And even this illustration is only a surface analysis. Because until you look at the people themselves and how this affected them, the numbers are only numbers. There is a story behind each and every one, whether you are talking American or Iraqi.

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

Keep in mind that Roberts managed to get himself simultaneously on both sides of the question of whether or not it's a tax, both yes and no in the same written opinion.

I haven't read the full text. I will have to Google it.

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

Okay, so the thing is like 193 pages long. No, I'm not going to read it all. Where do you see that Roberts managed to agree to and disagree with upholding the law under the Tax Clause?

I did notice this in the Syllabus:

Because "every reasonable construction must be resorted to, in order to save a statue from unconstitutionality," Hooper v California, 155 US 648,657, the question is whether it is "fairly possible" to interpret the mandate as imposing such a tax, Crowell v. Bens, 285 U.S. 22.62. Pp. 31-32.

Apparently Roberts decided it was.

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

Bens = Benson

   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

I saw the reference to the Anti-Injunction Act, but kind of slid over it. I will go back and re-read it.

But not tonight. I'm off for now.

Have a nice evening everyone! Try and stay cool. :)

Bridget يقول...

"Roberts decided that it wasn't a tax for purposes of invoking the Anti-Injunction Act, otherwise they'd just dismiss the case until 2014 when somebody was finally actually asked to pay the tax, they could re-file suit then if they wanted to"

Damn, that's what he should have done! Declared the thing unconstitutional on all grounds other than taxing authority and then refuse to decide the constitutionality under the taxing authority until we're all so freaking sick and tired of the whole mess that any sane person has ceased to give a flying .......

Now THAT would have been right shifty. I'd love it.

Bridget يقول...

Marcus.

Garbage in, garbage out.

   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

Ahhhh, I see, sneaky. Here is the short-hand portion in the Syllabus that refers to the Anti-Injunction Act:

...Congress did not intend the payment to be treated as a "Tax" for purposes of the Anti-Injuction Act. The Affordable Care Act describes the payment as a "penalty," not a "tax". That label cannot control whether the payment is a tax for purposes of the Constitution, but it does determine the application of the Anti-Injunction Act. The Anti-Injuntion Act therefore does not bar the suit.

lol! The wording on the Act is key to this ruling. But not when deciding whether or not it is allowable under the Tax Clause. Yes indeed, very, very clever man is Justice Roberts.

   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

Hmmm...it looks like he is saying that it is Congress that decides how their Acts will relate to each other and basically they did not specify that the Affordable Care Act requires the penalty to be treated as a tax under the Anti-Injuction Act.

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

But requiring that certain individuals pay a financial penalty for not obtaining health insurance may reasonably be characterized as a tax. Which is in line with Republican party thinking.

"He is no lawyer who cannot take both sides."

And very cleverly too. lol!

   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
   Lee C.  ―   U.S.A.     يقول...
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

I'm thinking the Constitution was written to be flexible enough to allow for various things to be "slid under". ;)