السبت، مارس 05، 2011

Friday, March 4th Iraqi protests

Stifled by tight security but met with far less bloodshed than the week before, thousands of people swarmed to protests across Iraq on Friday to call for better public services and more accountable politicians.

The demonstrations went ahead despite curfews and bans on vehicle movement in major cities such as Baghdad and Basra. However, the gatherings were smaller than similar rallies the previous week, which saw more than a dozen people killed in clashes with security forces.

More

Videos of today's protests here.

هناك 263 تعليقًا:

‏1 – 200 من 263   ‏›أحدث   ‏أحدث»
Freddie Starr يقول...

Freddie Starr ate my hamster.

Petes يقول...

Fine oil terminal at Zueitina...

http://www.zueitina.com.ly/zueitina-harbor.php

Reuters is reporting that it's ablaze. Oil's up five dollars today already.

Ucht يقول...

People are dying, but hey, oil's up five dollars. Stop the press!

Animal.

RhusLancia يقول...

People are dying, but hey, as long as the US and NATO stay out of it, it's all good.

Eukaryote.

Protoctista يقول...

People are dying, but hey, we'll figure out how to blame the Amreeki.

Protoctist.

LanceRhusia يقول...

People are dying, so I've gone gotten my dick all hard.

Masturbation.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
The Saudi government has banned all public protests and marches effective immediately.  The Interior Ministry said their security forces will use ‘all necessary measures’ to maintain ‘public order’.

Jeffrey يقول...

Is it true that Ozzie Osborne bit off the head of a hamster?

Maybe the hamster is really Fredster in disguise.

Semper Fred!

Hey RhusLancia, how goes it? I just stopped by to check up on the hamster situation. Well, I see that the anonymice are still as cowardly and inconsequential as ever. That will never change.

*

Jeffrey يقول...

Morning, Sheriff.

*tips hat brim*

*

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
Libyan rebels are claiming to have retaken Zawiyah (50 clicks west of downtown Tripoli) after heavy fighting following an early morning assault by Khadhafi's forces.  The initial assault was successful, but the rebels regrouped and counter-attacked, they claim successfully.  Khadhafi's forces were lead by the Khamis Brigade, supposedly one of Khadhafi's best armed and best trained, with tanks and heavy weapons.  Khadhafi's been trying for a week or so to retake that town.
The commander of the rebel forces was killed in the fighting.

Freddie Starr يقول...

Ozzy bit the head off a bat ... unless it was a hamster in a Dracula outfit.

Freddie's hamster was well documented, 25 years ago next week.

http://sunheadlines.blogspot.com/2008/11/classics-freddie-starr-ate-my-hamster.html

Jeffrey يقول...

Fredster,

Hey, according to Mr. Starr, he did not, in fact, eat Ms. Lea La Salle's hamster (named "Supersonic"). In his autobiography, he writes:

I have never eaten or even nibbled a live hamster, gerbil, guinea pig, mouse, shrew, vole or any other small mammal.

Hm. Fredster, is calumny your racket?

*

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
And Khadhafi's forces have regrouped and are again trying to take Zawiyah.  Nobody's givin’ this one up easy.

Freddie Starr يقول...

The Sun never lies.

Um Ayad يقول...

Protesters say Maliki is using special security forces to shut down demonstrations in Iraq

BAGHDAD - Among the revolts sweeping the Middle East and North Africa, Iraq's has been an exception: Here, protesters are seeking to reform a democratically elected government, not to topple an autocrat.
But protesters, human rights workers and security officials say the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has responded to Iraq's demonstrations in much the same way as many of its more authoritarian neighbors: with force....

"Maliki is starting to act like Saddam Hussein, to use the same fear, to plant it inside Iraqis who criticize him," said Salam Mohammed al-Segar, a human rights activist who was among those beaten during a sit-in. "The U.S. must feel embarrassed right now - it is they who promised a modern state, a democratic state. But in reality?"

Last Friday, the U.S. Embassy here issued a statement saying that security forces appeared to have followed Maliki's directive to allow peaceful protests. As reports emerged Saturday of the beaten journalists, the White House issued a statement saying that U.S. officials were "deeply troubled." The U.S. Embassy has declined to comment further.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/03/AR2011030304953.html

Um Ayad يقول...

Saudi Arabia imposes ban on all protests

Its statement said security forces would use all measures to prevent any attempt to disrupt public order.
The announcement follows a series of protests by the kingdom's Shia minority in the oil-producing eastern province.

Last month, King Abdullah unveiled a series of benefits in an apparent bid to protect the kingdom from the revolts spreading throughout many Arab states.

"Regulations in the kingdom forbid categorically all sorts of demonstrations, marches and sit-ins, as they contradict Islamic Sharia law and the values and traditions of Saudi society," the Saudi interior ministry statement said.
It added that police were "authorised by law to take all measures needed against those who try to break the law".

The protests in the Eastern Province - where much of the country's crude oil is sourced - have been demanding the release of prisoners who demonstrators say have been held without trial.

The announcement of the crackdown on protests follows the return, last week, of King Abdullah to the capital after an absence of several months due to illness.
He unveiled an additional $37bn (£22.7bn) in benefits for citizens, including a 15% pay rise for state employees, as well as extra funds for housing, studying abroad and social security.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12656744

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

Hmmm...Gates is warning that a no-fly zone begins with an attack on Libya. I would beg to differ. A no-fly zone begins with an attack on Gadhafi, since he is the one in control of the anti-aircraft guns. And precedent has been set for that.

As to being on the "right side" of history, that is merely doublespeak for an inherent fear of taking an action that might cause one to become unpopular. Those words reminded me of why I didn't vote for Obama. In this situation you only have two choices. Do something or do nothing. Either choice will displease someone. And either choice will be painful. That is why being President of the United States is not a job for the faint of heart.

The world can stand by and watch people being mown down by a brutal regime, or they can stand up and offer support for those who are fighting him. I can understand the hesitation because of the outcome in Afghanistan after the Soviets pulled out. But with any action there is never any guarantee of the perfect outcome. You can only take one situation at a time. And right now, people are dying.

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

PeteS,

I bought Micheal Lewis's "The Big Short". Looks interesting, and rather horrifying.

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

The unrest, which has been going on for a month, has rattled the political establishment, with Maliki and the speaker of the parliament, Usama Nujaifi, backing early provincial elections and giving ministers 100 days to address issues such as the provision of electricity and clean water.

If true, it sounds like someone has been listening. I hope so.

If they do set up early elections, or even if they don't, the people who have been protesting should consider organizing behind an opposition candidate. One who will actually try to address their concerns.

Petes يقول...

Lynnette -- Lewis must be doing the rounds. He was on the radio in Dublin yesterday.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

   
      "The world can stand by and watch people being
      mown down by a brutal regime, or they can stand
      up and offer support for those who are fighting
      him. ***  And right now, people are dying.
"

Perhaps you forget Somalia, where we went in to do good for the sake of doing good, to stabilize an area which had decended into chaos and complete lawlessness, only to find the locals to be murderously ungrateful for the help (to borrow a phrase from George Will).  "Blackhawk Down!"  Remember how that worked out?

The simple matter of fact is that the Libyans don't like Americans.¹  I give you a quote from a Libyan rebel in Zawiyah today, whilst gettin’ the shit shot out of his unit:

      "There is heavy bombing of the city by tanks and
      heavy weapons and mortars — the rebels are
      struggling to resist with very primitive means.
      They [invading forces] have no mercy and are
      very brutal. There is a large number of injured and
      a lot of people killed on the streets.
      "There is no mercy to civilians ... there is a very
      tragic situation happening right now. It's a very
      serious situation. We were expecting the world to
      intervene, but they have let us down. Shelling is
      now coming in from all sides."
      "We have made up our mind that we will die here.
      Where is the United Nations or the Arab League
      or the international community who have spoken
      about our rights or protecting us? I don't think
      they meant what they have said.
"

Notably absent from his list of folks whom he might want to weigh in on his side is the United States.

             ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
    ¹ Very likely, Ahmed, the guy quoted above, doesn't have any particular dislike for you personally nor any grudge to settle with you personally.  But, you show up to help him, under an American flag in Libya, and he's apt to take a time out from shooting at Khadhafi's forces to shoot at you instead.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

   
      "The world can stand by and watch people being
      mown down by a brutal regime, or they can stand
      up and offer support for those who are fighting
      him. ***  And right now, people are dying.
"

Perhaps you forget Somalia, where we went in to do good for the sake of doing good, to stabilize an area which had decended into chaos and complete lawlessness, only to find the locals to be murderously ungrateful for the help (to borrow a phrase from George Will).  "Blackhawk Down!"  Remember how that worked out?

The simple matter of fact is that the Libyans don't like Americans.¹  I give you a quote from a Libyan rebel in Zawiyah today, whilst gettin’ the shit shot out of his unit:

      "There is heavy bombing of the city by tanks and
      heavy weapons and mortars — the rebels are
      struggling to resist with very primitive means.
      They [invading forces] have no mercy and are
      very brutal. There is a large number of injured and
      a lot of people killed on the streets.
      "There is no mercy to civilians ... there is a very
      tragic situation happening right now. It's a very
      serious situation. We were expecting the world to
      intervene, but they have let us down. Shelling is
      now coming in from all sides."
      "We have made up our mind that we will die here.
      Where is the United Nations or the Arab League
      or the international community who have spoken
      about our rights or protecting us? I don't think
      they meant what they have said.
"

Notably absent from his list of folks whom he might want to weigh in on his side is the United States.

             ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
    ¹ Very likely, Ahmed, the guy quoted above, doesn't have any particular dislike for you personally nor any grudge to settle with you personally.  But, you show up to help him, under an American flag in Libya, and he's apt to take a time out from shooting at Khadhafi's forces to shoot at you instead. 

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

  
      "A no-fly zone begins with an attack on Gadhafi,
      since he is the one in control of the anti-aircraft
      guns.  And precedent has been set for that.
"

Ah yes, precedent.  Khadhafi had (according to Reagan, and Reagan was probably quite right) ordered an attack on American armed forces.  So, Reagan retaliated.  Precedent for such as that was set long before Reagan ever ran for public ofice the first time in California.  To come within it's ambit, all we gotta do is get Khadhafi to take a short time out from his current minor situation and turn his attention to goading us; preferably some offense that targets American servicemen on the ground somewhere, simple little matter that, yes?
You got a plan for how to accomplish this simple little matter? 

Petes يقول...

"We have made up our mind that we will die here. Where is the United Nations or the Arab League or the international community who have spoken about our rights or protecting us? I don't think they meant what they have said."
Notably absent from his list of folks whom he might want to weigh in on his side is the United States.


The United States is a member of the United Nations and the international community.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "The United States is a member of the United
      Nations and the international community.
"

I suspect Ahmed will see it rather differently if we go in flying an American flag.  (Flying no flag would be a violation of the Geneva Conventions.) 

Um Ayad يقول...

MP supports demonstrators demands to sack Baghdad’s Council, Governor.

The Independent Legislature in Iraq’s Parliament, Safiya al-Suheil, has expressed support on Friday for the demands of demonstrators in Baghdad, to abolish Baghdad’s Council and sack its Governor, Salah Abdul-Razzaq.

She said that “more than 90% of the Baghdad Council’s members are not original inhabitants of the Iraqi capital, being strangers, who don’t understand the nature, habits and traditions the city, along with their bad administration and corruption.”

“The demonstrators demands are clear, as they demand to liberate their city from those who had been imposed on them, carrying agendas that aim at transferring the Iraqi capital into a religious city, canceling its civilian nature, despite fact that they and the parties that brought them are jointly responsible to achieve their commitments to respect the constitution, that confirms necessity to respect freedoms, democratic principles and human rights,” she said.

Suheil said that “the corruption and ignorant elements must be accounted legally and not only politically, through demanding their resignation by their party leadership or their leader-in-charge.”

“The demonstrators are demanding to account those officials, restoration of the funds that were stolen, along with their ignorance towards the citizens of Baghdad, which they pushed towards reaction and backwardness,” she added.

http://en.aswataliraq.info/Default1.aspx?page=article_page&id=141312&l=1

Petes يقول...

"The United States is a member of the United Nations and the international community."

"I suspect Ahmed will see it rather differently if we go in flying an American flag. (Flying no flag would be a violation of the Geneva Conventions.)"

Normally United Nations Military Forces don't use special flags, but fly the standard United Nations flag and wear light blue helmets and arm bands clearly identifying them as troops representing the United Nations.

http://www.loeser.us/flags/un.html

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "Normally United Nations Military Forces…fly
      the standard United Nations flag…
"

And your point would be what?  Or did you have a point?

RhusLancia يقول...

Hey Jeffrey! It's going good - how are you these days? A thread or two ago Bruno actually admitted he was OK with US military aircraft helping with evacuations. Normally, his reflexive action would be to wish death and destruction on any US action, so maybe he's mellowing with age?

"I have never eaten or even nibbled a live hamster, gerbil, guinea pig, mouse, shrew, vole or any other small mammal."

Emphasis mine. He coulda kilt it first...

RhusLancia يقول...

I don't think anyone's seriously talked about outside assistance on the ground, either Libyans or Merkins, or anyone else. But the no-fly zone keeps coming up. I would hazard a guess that it would never happen via the UNSC, but what if recognized leaders of the rebellion directly asked, say, NATO to do it? If an outside country's military aircraft shot down the plane that was bombing him or destroyed the tank that was shelling him, how much would Ahmed care, really, whose flag it flew as long as it's intervention was limited to that? And I wonder also, wouldn't the formal announcement of a no-fly zone force Khadafi's forces (if not himself) to reconsider advancing against the rebels?

Somalia <> Libya in at least one regard: Somalia was a free for all whereas Libya is the protesters/rebels against the existing regime. Probably an important distinction, methinks.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "I wonder also, wouldn't the formal
     
announcement of a no-fly zone force
      Khadafi's forces (if not himself) to reconsider
      advancing against the rebels?
"

Don't see why.  There's not much evidence that Khadhafi's air assets are having a substantial impact on the conflict so far.  Lot of talk ‘bout a no-fly zone, but not much evidence it'll accomplish anything important.

      "Somalia <> Libya…[etc. etc.] Probably an
      important distinction, methinks.
"

Don't see why.  Don't make Ahmed any more favorably disposed towards us.  Gotta figure he knew he left us off that list and did it on purpose. 

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

   
      "I wonder also, wouldn't the formal
     
announcement of a no-fly zone force
      Khadafi's forces (if not himself) to reconsider
      advancing against the rebels?
"

Don't see why.  There's not much evidence that Khadhafi's air assets are having a substantial impact on the conflict so far.  Lot of talk ‘bout a no-fly zone, but not much evidence it'll accomplish anything important.

      "Somalia <> Libya…[etc. etc.] Probably an
      important distinction, methinks.
"

Don't see why.  Don't make Ahmed any more favorably disposed towards us.  Gotta figure he knew he left us off that list and did it on purpose. 

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

Oh, yeah, as for Ahmed…  I don't recall that Ahmed mentioned actually having seen a plane or a helicopter; he mentioned tanks, heavy guns, mortars, no air power.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
I'd reckon the first question to ponder is this:  Irrespective of whether they'd be amenable to supporting a good plan instead of insisting on a stupid, half-assed plan…  What's the chances ya think that either NATO or the U.N. will approve anything more hands on than freezing assets or issuing warrants, or maybe issuing some sort of pompous declaration or other?

RhusLancia يقول...

Lee C; "Don't see why. There's not much evidence that Khadhafi's air assets are having a substantial impact on the conflict so far. Lot of talk ‘bout a no-fly zone, but not much evidence it'll accomplish anything important."

Well, something just blew up an important rebel-held arms dump. Coulda been an air strike, but I don't know. Irrespective of that, I was speculating, based on the fact that many military units & personnel switched sides already. If the remaining forces (air and ground) thought they'd be facing much more than small arms if they chose follow Khadafi's orders, it could tip them away from doing it. At least some of his remaining forces could melt away.

Don't see why. Don't make Ahmed any more favorably disposed towards us. Gotta figure he knew he left us off that list and did it on purpose.

The difference I noted between Somalia and Libya (thus far at least) exists. Whether or not Ahmed left us off on purpose, or thought we'd fall under a UN or international community blanket is subject to your guess vs mine. My guess is that, if he's under attack and a foreign airplane destroys his attacker, he may not be so opposed to learning it was a US plane, or a Swedish one. Of course, others would have their say.

Put it another way: if Bruno was being carjacked (again!) in Souff Ifrica and a US soldier repelled the attack, he just might get off the anti-merkin train long enough to actually thank him. Anonimo, of course, will still call for the soldier's death, but so it goes.

What's the chances ya think that either NATO or the U.N. will approve...

I think the odds are roughly between "null" and "zero".

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

      "Well, something just blew up an important
      rebel-held arms dump.
"

Khadhafi's cached arms all over the damn place; they're finding arms dumps by the day.  The only thing that made that one particularly important is that it made the news, and it only made the news ‘cause it's news that Khadhafi managed to blow one up from the air.  So, in effect, it only became important because Khadhafi managed to take it out.  Up ‘til then, there was nothing particularly important ‘bout that one..

      "I was speculating…"

Indeed you are.  I'm not much impressed with the wisdom of jumpin’ into another war in the Middle East based on speculation indulged in for the purpose of justifyin’ jumpin’ into another war in the Middle East.  You'll probably need to come up with more than that.

      "The difference I noted between Somalia and
      Libya (thus far at least) exists.
"

I suppose the difference does exist.  Still can't see that it makes any difference.  Still don't make Ahmed any more favorably disposed towards us.

      "Whether or not Ahmed left us off on purpose…
      is subject to your guess vs mine.
"

You've decided to actually go with the theory that Ahmed left us off the list by accident?  You're gonna put that up as a viable theory in opposition to mine?  You're pretty hard-core Glenn Hannibaugh fan today, ain't ya?

      "Put it another way: if Bruno was being
      carjacked (again!) in Souff Ifrica and a US soldier
      repelled the attack, he just might get off the
      anti-merkin train long enough to actually thank
      him.
"

Not the point.  Point is if we repel an attack on Ahmed, from the air or otherwise, Bruno, and Marcus and others will be climbing the minarets in Libya to shout out, five times a day along with the call to prayer, that we're actually only there to steal Ahmed's oil.  They'll creep up behind his tent in the dark to whisper it into the evening breeze.  And Ahmed is predisposed to believe them.
"Me and my brother and my cousin against the stranger" goes the Arabic saying, and Khadhafi is still a fellow Libyan, and we're still Evil Merkins out to steal their oil.  They'll turn on us and figure to deal with him later.  At best only some of them will turn, but fracturing the rebel alliance ‘fore they get rid of Khadhafi ain't exactly a good idea on its own merits.

      "…roughly between ‘null’ and ‘zero’"

I may not be quite that pessimistic, but close.  Close ‘nuff that I don't see any point in engaging in idle argument based on the notion that we'll get either of them to flag an operation in Libya.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
I notice that we're negotiating with the Tunisians to provide humanitarian assistance to the refugees flooding into Tunisia--military aircraft and help with crowd control and needed tents and supplies and like that.  And all of this a pretty fair cover for surreptitious contact with rebel commanders, which contact could send in satellite intelligence and maybe a few night vision goggles and other tech goodies that might prove to provide a useful edge should this thing start to drag out.  And, close to Tripoli too.  Look at the map.
Khadhafi's looked at the map.  His guys abruptly cut off the routes out to Tunisia the other day; just shut the exodus down completely for about a day; although it's picked back up again some I hear.  They may have been just checking to see whether they could get a handle on the threat.

Um Ayad يقول...

SAS members 'arrested near Benghazi'

Details of a UK operation to rebel-held Benghazi in Libya in which eight men - six reportedly SAS - were arrested, have been disclosed to the BBC.
Defence Secretary Liam Fox said a small diplomatic team was in Benghazi and "they were in touch with them".

The BBC's Jon Leyne said witnesses saw six men in black overalls land in a helicopter near the city early on Friday and they were met by two others.
They were later arrested when it was discovered they were carrying weapons.

According to an earlier report in the Sunday Times the unit was trying to put UK diplomats in touch with rebels trying to topple the Gaddafi regime.
In a statement, the MoD said: "We neither confirm nor deny the story and we do not comment on the special forces."

Our correspondent, who is in Benghazi, said the men went to the compound of an agricultural company where they were challenged by Libyan guards and asked if they had weapons.

"Witnesses said that when the men's bags were checked they were found to contain arms, ammunition, explosives, maps and passports from at least four different nationalities.
"The witnesses said at that point all eight men were arrested and taken to an army base in Benghazi where they are being held by the opposition forces who control this area."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12658054

Truth Seeker يقول...

^

Waterboard them!

Um Ayad يقول...

DAY OF THE MARTYR, 04 March 2011
Second National day of Rage in Iraq. Western media: deaf, dumb and blind.

I was also listening to their fervor and anguish which literally brought me to tears and broke my heart probably for the umpteenth millionth time since the invasion and occupation of Iraq asking myself all the time how can the world be so blind and deaf – and for the past two weeks I have felt that the world is not only deaf and blind but dumb also, with a very few exceptions , of course!
We started the Martyr’s Day, for that is what the young people have called it, with the execution of a young married man being taken away in full sight of his young wife and children by a force called Battalion 24, formerly known as the infamous, Muthanna Battalion commanded by the very infamous Raheem Risen Al Baythani who has commanded this battalion in Abu Ghraib and has terrorized its citizens since he took over which is around 3 years ago – before that he was in command of Hay Al Jamia’a which he also terrorized – infact, he is famous for terrorizing the areas he has taken command of – I’ve heard that he tells the people that they are all his slaves!

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m75578&hd=&size=1&l=e

Um Ayad يقول...

How Many Iraqi's Were Killed?

We will never have any type of full accountability of the deaths of the civilians in Iraq as to the invasion and long occupation, still ongoing, what we do know is the possibility of tens of thousands killed, tens of thousands maimed, unknown numbers of physiological damaged Iraqi's living in the death and destruction of almost daily 9/11's especially in the cities destroyed, millions made into refugee's both inside the country and to neighboring countries and beyond, a country totally destroyed and changed forever! Done In Our Names!

WikiLeaks analysis suggests hundreds of thousands of unrecorded Iraqi deaths

Les Roberts, 05 March 2011 - Imagine that the New York Times revealed that five Senators were known to be taking bribes from a particular corporation. Some days later the Washington Post runs a story saying they had independent sources suggesting that four Senators were taking bribes from that same corporation but goes on to state that this was nothing new as the story was already covered, neglecting to mention that three of the four names were different than those previously reported by the Times. This is hard to imagine because eight named Senators in a scandal is not the same as five named Senators, and because healthy competition between papers would tend to point out the information missed by a rival. Yet, this is, at least numerically, what happened following the October 22nd, 2010 release of the Iraq War Logs by WikiLeaks....

http://iraqwarinquiries.blogspot.com/2011/03/how-many-iraqis-were-killed.html

Um Ayad يقول...

From The Archives: Bush's Interrogators Stressed Nudity

"The goal of interrogation is to create a state of learned helplessness and dependence conducive to the collection of intelligence in a predictable, reliable, and sustainable manner."

The report said a typical "session one" would start as "the HVD is brought into the interrogation room, and under the direction of the interrogators, stripped of his clothes, and placed into shackles."

After a round of questioning -- that would include some slaps and slamming the prisoner against a wall -- sleep deprivation and dietary manipulation (which along with nudity are regarded as "conditioning techniques") are begun.....

http://www.opednews.com/articles/2/From-The-Archives--Bush-s-by-Robert-Parry-110304-464.html

Poop Leaker يقول...

[Truth My Hole]: "Waterboarding is fine as long as the right people are being waterboarded".

No surprise there.

JG يقول...
أزال المؤلف هذا التعليق.
Truth Seeker يقول...

It was a joke. The hapless fools are being treated well unlike those in Guantánamo Bay and elsewhere.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "The hapless fools…"

Hapless fools you say?

      "According to an earlier report in the Sunday
      Times the unit was trying to put UK diplomats in
      touch with rebels trying to topple the Gaddafi
      regime.
"

If that's what they were up to, it would appear that they have accomplished their primary mission.  Got to where they were goin’ without incident and knocked on the door, still carryin’ their luggage.  The rebels seem to have gone public with the contact, but I hardly think the commandos can be blamed for that.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
Although, I think this may be an object lesson for Rhus on what can go wrong if we try too hard to offer our help to a batch of paranoid xenophobes, rebels agin’ Khadhafi though they may also be.

Petes يقول...

Nothing like hostile government forces blowin' the shit out of you to whip up a bit of understandable paranoid xenophobia.

These eejits were carrying weapons and multiple passports and landed in a desert in the dead of night. Meanwhile there are lots of reporters in the area who came in by straighforward overland routes, plus a British ship berthed in Benghazi itself.

There is a civil war going on. Anyone who thinks covert movements are not going to arouse suspicion is a dope.

Petes يقول...

Obama looks set to visit Oirland in May. Obviously there must be a few Oirish-American Democrats that Obama wants to suck up to on account of their importance to his campaign funds. Unfortunately they won't be funding the trip itself -- that'll be down to us broke Oirish. And it's be just after our gubmint hosts Queen Lizzie II, also at our expense. At least it's a century since we entertained a British monarch (on account of a spot of trouble we had with them), whereas every American Preznit with a droplet of Oirish blood in their veins seems to want to come and stay at our expense.

Petes يقول...

Iraq loses title of shittiest country at forming a government...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/18/belgium-marks-250-days-no-government

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

Lee C,

I see my remark about Obama's "right side of history" comment has irritated you. Well, you have to know, that remark of his really irritated me. I expect better of my President. Anyway, to address your remarks:

Perhaps you forget Somalia, where we went in to do good for the sake of doing good,...

No, I do not forget Somalia. Nor do I forget Afghanistan or Iraq.

I put up the Reagan link to illustrate that a limited military action on our part was not necessarily an attack on the sovereignty of the Libyan people. It can be a direct response to the actions of a single indidivual and his regime. Nor is it a suggestion that the United States has any intention of going in on the ground with troops to fight Gadhafi. There are plenty of people in Libya to do that.

The simple matter of fact is that the Libyans don't like Americans.¹

We are not well liked by any number of people. Which is perhaps why your Libyan rebel was so careful in his speech.

"There is no mercy to civilians ... there is a very tragic situation happening right now. It's a very serious situation. We were expecting the world to intervene, but they have let us down.

Where is the United Nations or the Arab League or the international community who have spoken about our rights or protecting us? I don't think they meant what they have said."

In the Middle East nuance is everything. They will take help from whoever offers it, as long as they don't stay. This is the Libyan version of Bruno's "plausible deniability".

But, you show up to help him, under an American flag in Libya, and he's apt to take a time out from shooting at Khadhafi's forces to shoot at you instead.

lol! Probably. But, if we showed up with an anti-aircraft gun and showed him how to use it, the story might be a little different.

Ah yes, precedent. To come within it's ambit, all we gotta do is get Khadhafi to take a short time out from his current minor situation and turn his attention to goading us; preferably some offense that targets American servicemen on the ground somewhere, simple little matter that, yes?
You got a plan for how to accomplish this simple little matter?


The old argument that unless it's Americans who are being attacked there is no reason for the United States to get involved. That's the crux of the issue for many. I should think that if it were Americans being fired upon during peaceful demonstrations there would be no question of what to do. This comes back to my earlier remark about there only being two choices. Do something or do nothing. In both cases people will die. We can sit back and watch or we can try to at least save some. Everyone has to make a choice. I would choose to try something.

As for helicopters and planes, yes they have been used. At least according to media and sources on the ground. There is the video of the plane dropping it's payload short of his target in a refusal to follow orders. I also would remind you of the planes that defected to Malta to avoid bombing civilians. So the orders have been given. I will try to dig up the information on the helicopters. I don't have the source saved on this computer.

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

RhusLancia,

:))))

Oooooh, give you a gold star. :))) You got what I was thinking.

Irrespective of that, I was speculating, based on the fact that many military units & personnel switched sides already. If the remaining forces (air and ground) thought they'd be facing much more than small arms if they chose follow Khadafi's orders, it could tip them away from doing it. At least some of his remaining forces could melt away.

I well remember how many in Saddam's military did not choose to stand and fight for him when they faced a more powerful military. It could very well tip the balance in favor of the rebels.

squish? Oh, now there's an apt word verification! lol!

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "I see my remark about Obama's ‘right side of
      history’ comment has irritated you.
"

Think that's what got my attention do ya?  Well, I was arguing against a knee-jerk resort to a no-fly zone several days before you made that remark, clear back to the prior thread.  But, I presume you'll explain that fact away somehow.

      "They will take help from whoever offers it….
      This is the Libyan version of Bruno's
      ‘plausible deniability’.
"

You faith in that, apparently as some sort of revealed truth, is as unwarranted as it appears to be absolute.

      "But, if we showed up with an anti-aircraft gun
      and showed him how to use it, the story might be
      a little different.
"

Might be.  Might not be.  I do vividly remember a Libyan in a fancied up uniform (I couldn't make out his rank), no doubt a member of Khadhafi's military who went over to the rebels on TV the other day.  He was part of the rebel council formed up in Benghazi.  I didn't catch his name nor his rank, but I  heard him talking and stopped to listen:  "I say to the Americans, keep your weapons; you made need them somewhere else.  We can manage on our own."  Personally, my first impression was that he was letting his pride lead him to foolishness, and I figured he probably didn't speak for whole rebel coalition any more than you do.  But, that's what he said, and they sent him out to the cameras to say it.  So I figured his faction won that vote, whether by a little or a lot I can't say.

      "The old argument that unless it's Americans
      who are being attacked there is no reason for the
      United States to get involved.
"

Nope, that's not the argument.  The argument is this:
  1.  "Let's just call a spade a spade."  "A no-fly zone begins with an attack on Libya." Bob Gates.
  2  Lynnette in Minnesota believes that:
      "Gates is warning that a no-fly zone begins with
      an attack on Libya. I would beg to differ. A no-fly
      zone begins with an attack on Gadhafi
."
      (emphasis in original)
    However, this is wrong.  To call a spade a spade (borrowing the phrase from Gates this time).  An unprovoked attack against Khadhafi, the recognized head of the Libyan government, is an attack on Libya.  In fact, an unprovoked attack on any Libyan inside Libya is an attack on Libya, a breach of their sovereignty no less severe than would be taking their embassy hostage.  The President is not authorized to initiate a foreign war.  That authority has to come from Congress.  Reagan had the advantage of an exception, precedent long set, ‘cause Khadhafi had ordered an attack on American servicemen, and, as Commander-in-Chief, he could order a retaliation without having to go to Congress and without it being considered the initiation of war.  (Our guys do get to shoot back.)

      "So the orders have been given."

I didn't question that.  I questioned whether Khadhafi's air assets had been of any significance so far.  The evidence suggests they've not played a significant role in the progress, or lack thereof, of the rebellion and, accordingly, a no-fly zone wouldn't have a significant impact either.  Waste of time and effort.

Is there an important point you think I missed?  I'll be happy to circle back ‘round this one again and pick it up this time.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
Oh,yes, there was this:

      "But, if we showed up with an anti-aircraft gun
      and showed him how to use it, the story might be
      a little different.
"

Second point to be made perhaps.
I have not argued against providing arms, ammo, and/or supplies to the rebels.  That's a whole ‘nother question.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "Nothing like hostile government forces blowin'
      the shit out of you to whip up a bit of understand-
      able paranoid xenophobia.
"

I don't follow that logic (or lack thereof).  Libyan government blowin’ the shit outta Libyan rebels causes them (the rebels)to be paranoid of non-Libyan, Evil Merkinss whom that Libyan government accuses of stirring up said Libyan rebels?  How does that work?

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "Nothing like hostile government forces blowin'
      the shit out of you to whip up a bit of understand-
      able paranoid xenophobia.
"

I don't follow that logic (or lack thereof).  Libyan government blowin’ the shit outta Libyan rebels causes them (the rebels)to be paranoid of non-Libyan, Evil Merkinss whom that Libyan government accuses of stirring up said Libyan rebels?  How does that work?

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

   
      "Oooooh, give you a gold star. :))) You got
      what I was thinking.
      "‘If the remaining forces (air and ground) thought
      they'd be facing much more than small arms if
      they chose follow Khadafi's orders, it could tip
      them away from doing it.
'"

I'm gonna havta declare you unqualified to handle the box with the gold stars and request that you surrender said box to more capable hands.
If we're talkin’ ‘bout a no-fly zone, then that doesn't do squat to change what Khadhafi's ground forces face.  And, his air assets have been fairly ineffective anyhow, so it's not going to change much there either.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "These eejits were carrying weapons and
      multiple passports and landed in a desert in the
      dead of night.
"

I presume your argument is that the Brits should have sent messages via those reporters you mention, or sent a note from the captain of the ship requesting a meeting or some such thing?
Assuming for the sake of argument that such contacts would have been sufficient for the Brits' purposes, then the ‘eejits’ would be the pols who ordered up the covert op, not so much the guys who went in, the latter seem to have gotten to their objective without incident and with their tickets home still on them.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
NBC Nightly News is reporting that those British commandos were, in fact, escorting a British diplomat.  Got him where they thought they going in one piece too.  Probably not the sort of thing that reporters or notes from a ship's captain was gonna accomplish. 

غير معرف يقول...

Hi,
I just wanted to say thank you to the Iraqi dentist living in Texas who is keeping us posted on these events. My prayers are with all Iraqis and people fighting for freedom from injustice everywhere, in all its hideous forms.

Um Ayad يقول...

SAS-backed Libyan diplomatic mission ends in humiliation

British special forces and intelligence agents leave Libya on HMS Cumberland after being released by anti-Gaddafi rebels

The six SAS troops and two MI6 officers were seized by Libyan rebels in the eastern part of the country after arriving by helicopter four days ago.

Audio of a telephone conversation between the UK's ambassador to Libya, Richard Northern, and a senior rebel leader was later leaked....

According to Guardian sources, the British intelligence and special forces unit were caught near the al-Khadra Farm Company, 18 miles (30km) south-west of Benghazi. A senior member of Benghazi's revolutionary council said: "They were carrying espionage equipment, reconnaissance equipment, multiple passports and weapons. This is no way to conduct yourself during an uprising.

"Gaddafi is bringing in thousands of mercenaries to kill us, most are using foreign passports and how do we know who these people are?
"They say they're British nationals and some of the passports they have are British. But the Israelis used British passports to kill that man in Dubai last year."...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/06/sas-diplomatic-mission-in-libya

Yahswe Sukuyugi يقول...

what they did is right.. so keep it up brothers.

Petes يقول...

[Lee C]: "I don't follow that logic..."

Quite. This time I find I really don't care if you're being obtuse or just playing dumb.

RhusLancia يقول...

There is another saying: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". But it's just your guess vs mine as to exactly why Ahmed did not call us out by name. I have seen other quotes where some rebels are asking for a no-fly zone, other reports where Khadafi's forces are in fact supported from the air, and yet another where the US reportedly asked Saudi Arabia to arm the rebels. Now, that's ironic.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "This time I find I really don't care…"

Yeah, well then…  Let me be a little less polite and a little more direct then. 
That made absolutely no friggin’ sense.  Total non sequitur; does not follow.  And it fairly clearly appears that you're dodging the explanation 'cause you already know it doesn't follow.  But, I'm cool with that.  I don't see any reason to want to watch you try to sweat out more stupidity on this topic.  You're just on a campaign now, challenging everything on account of you're being surly ‘cause I caught you being stupid earlier, and it's leading you to engage in ever more stupidity.  And, quite frankly, you're getting ‘bout as boring as Bruno can quite often be.  So, you just go quiet now and I'll let you go easy.

             ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
      "But it's just your guess vs mine as to exactly
      why Ahmed did not call us out by name.
"

You're really gonna go with that theory that he just forgot?  Man, you really are hard-core.  But, I understand that, ain't no help for it.  You get backed into a mental corner and there's no place else to go, so you gotta just stick with it, no matter how absurd it is.  Or, you gotta give up a cherished belief, and that's more than you can bear.  So, we'll just go on.

      "I have seen other quotes where some rebels
      are asking for a no-fly zone….
"

Yeah, I've seen those too.  I thought I'd taken care to note that I don't think anybody I've heard to date speaks for all the rebels on this topic.  I don't think they've come to a consensus (other than that even the ones who might be willing to grudgingly accept it still can't ask for help from the Evil Merkins).  Back then to a point I made and that you and Lynnette both chose to ignore on account of you got no answer for it.

      "At best, only some of them will turn [on us], but
      fracturing the rebel alliance ‘fore they get rid of
      Khadhafi ain't exactly a good idea on its own
      merits.
"
      Lee C. @ 3:43 AM

The corollary to that, of course, is that, at worst, most of them will turn on us.  Either way, fracturing the rebel alliance is a dumbass move for us to be makin’.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

And, just by the way…  The fact that those rebels who just might be able to grudgingly accept help from the Evil Merkins still can't say it out loud indicates fairly clearly that they're vastly outnumbered amongst Libyans in general.  Not a ringing endorement for the notion that that we ought to be fosting unwanted ‘help’ on the majority of rebel Libyans who don't want it, and are apt to view it as proof of our imperialist intentions.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
Misspelled 'endorsement’ above.  But, I have another post script to add, or I'd have just let it go.

I've not seen any Libyans asking for Americans to establish a no-fly zone.
You got something on that?

RhusLancia يقول...

"You're really gonna go with that theory that he just forgot?"

Ahmed coulda said he wanted help from the int'l community and the merkins

-- or --

he wanted help from the int'l comunity but not the merkins.

But he said neither, leaving us to guess. And you guess with much stronger conviction than I. My guess is based on the principle that Ahmed dislikes being shot up by Khadafi's forces more than he dislikes foreign intervention. Also, regarding xenophobia, on the flip side the pro-Khadafi Libyans have not rejected the presence of African mercenaries nor turned against them, as far as we know.

I've not seen any Libyans asking for Americans to establish a no-fly zone.

I haven't heard them say they want anyone but the Merkins to establish a no-fly zone, neither. And for that matter, I am not saying the US needs to. Let the Arab League do it, or Italy, or NATO.

Bruno يقول...

Gosh, PeteS scrolled by LEE's voluminous screed.

Say it ain't so!

Goddamn, an' he spent hours tryin' to get the mixture of italics an' bold an' cornpone accent just right.

Sometimes, life ain't fair.

Bruno يقول...

[bruno] So then why do they hate America?
[lee] All them Arabs in the streets and they're not chanting anti-American slogans.

[times passes by, allowing him to forget his previous statements]

[lee] The simple matter of fact is that the Libyans don't like Americans.

Q.E.D. ...

:)

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

   
      "…leaving us to guess…"
 
Yes, yes, I'm already aware that you must now defend your 'guess’ against all reason and all evidence.  Otherwise you must question another matter of faith, and that's too painful.  Already seen this, quite enough of this, in fact.
There remains the problems you haven't dealt with (1) of the President not having the authority to issue an order creating a no-fly zone over Libya, and (2) fracturing the rebel alliance in a dispute over American involvement, but I'm sure you'll get appropriate religion and believe miracles on those questions too.
So, on we go…
 
      "Let the Arab League do it, or Italy, or NATO."

I have no problem with that, well, not with the Arab League nor Italy.  For that matter, I have no insurmountable problem with NATO or the U.N. putting a flag on it.  (There's the minor problem of them involving us and it currently lookin’ like a solution in search of problem to solve, but I can live with that on account of the political fallout that would occur if we bailed out of a NATO or U.N. military operation for no better reason than that it was a half-assed, half-baked notion designed more for looks and for feel-goods for the audience than for practical effects in assistance of the rebels.)
 

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
And be damned if there ain't Bruno trying to pretend to some competence at logic again.

Bruno, do you even know what ‘Q.E.D’ actually means?  ‘Cause I can't see you missin’ the mark with its use so consistently if you had even a hint of a clue.

Bruno يقول...

quot erat demonstrandum, sonny.

That which was to be proven, has been proven.

Then again, I'm probably using it so much because you're such an easy mark to pick on.

Bruno يقول...

I love how LEE pretends he understands logic. LOL

Bruno يقول...

Although I have to confess, I'm somewhat disappointed at LEE's sparse use of bold and cornpone in his reply to me.

Maybe he's tired, poor waif.

Bruno يقول...

Almost 15 minutes have passed. Hmm. I'm guessin' that LEE's cookin' up a veritable cornpone feast by now.

Bruno يقول...

What a pity. The hillbilly decided to avoid his spanking by running away.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
Just watchin’ you babble.  Utterly amazing.  You're totally clueless; you even looked it up, and you're still totally clueless.

Bruno يقول...

Random insults?

To be expected.

An actual defence of the fact that LEE got caught with his pants down holding two contradictory positions?

Never!

Marcus يقول...

About that no-fly-zone idea:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/07/world/middleeast/07military.html?_r=1&hp

"“Lots of people throw around phrases like no-fly zone — they talk about it as though it’s just a video game,” William M. Daley, the new White House chief of staff, said in at appearance on “Meet the Press” on NBC.

Gen. John P. Jumper, who served as Air Force chief of staff from 2001 to 2005 and commanded all Air Force missions in the Middle East from 1994 to 1996, said past flight-denial missions over Iraq proved that requirements reach far beyond the jet fighters and bombers that are the most obvious instruments of carrying out a presidential order.

The destruction of Libyan air-defense radars and missile batteries would be required, perhaps using missiles launched from submarines or warships. A vast fleet of tankers would be needed to refuel warplanes. Search-and-rescue teams trained in land and sea operations would be on hand in case a plane went down.

The fleet of aircraft needed for such a mission would easily reach into the hundreds. Given the size of such a mission, it would be expected that American and NATO bases in Europe would be used, and that an American aircraft carrier would be positioned off Libya."

Marcus يقول...

I also believe in the possibility that a US/Nato intervention could be viewed in a very negative light and could possibly split up the protesters. Al Qaeda in the Maghreb has already tried to hijack the protesters' cause to little avail. That could change if there was western "meddling", at least it would give them the argument to use.

Also, the same has to be considered when you think about arming the rebels. Think hard about what sort of weaponry you put in which hands. It'd not be all that great to give Stinger missiles to rebels in the hope that they can defend themselves against Khadaffis air assaults only to see them used a mile or so from Heathrow on a passenger plane bound for Newark.

Bruno يقول...

Good points all, Marcus. There could easily be blowback from equipping the rebels. But what worries me even more than that is that typically when supplying weaponry to groups, the US & friends choose the most psychotic and violent people out there. Take the Contras for example. Or the groups it armed in Afghanistan. There were alternatives to people like Hekmatyar. But the yanks thought it funny to arm the most radical groups it could find, in an effort to destabilise the Russians as much as possible. I'm worried that the same thing could happen in Libya.

Petes يقول...

Yes, good point Marcus. (And a lot more reasonable than the last two pages of watching Lee get his knickers in an ideological twist).

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
Not only did Bruno run outta steam fast, but he never caught a second wind.  Perhaps he needs poked?

      "…two contradictory positions…"
      Bruno @ 1:52 AM

Tell us Bruno, what contradictory positions have you imagined up for me to hold?

             ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
      "Yes, good point Marcus."

Yes, not giving the Libyans stinger missiles would be a good point.  Except, nobody had even suggested giving them stingers until Marcus thought it up.  Perhaps a better point would be to not give them a stash of tactical nukes, as the nukes make a much bigger ‘bang’?  How long a list can we make do ya think?  (Man, you are just too obvious here.)

Petes يقول...

Photo in the news today showing a giant plume of smoke and people diving from cars, captioned: "Libyan rebel fighters take cover as an airforce fighter jet bombs a checkpoint on the outskirts of the oil town of Ras Lanuf today".

Well, it made the news, so by twisted Lee logic is must be of no consequence.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

  
And, just by the way, today's fighting (including late Sunday our time here in The States) brings us the first credible reports of Khadhafi actually using his air assets to any significant effect.  His guys have reportedly used helicopter gunships, artillery and rockets to turn back the rebels' march from the east towards Tripoli.  Perhaps the rebel council in Benghazi will now rethink their prior dismissal of outside assistance.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

  
I see Petes has noticed the news too.  And even posted ‘bout it before I did.  Although he neglects to notice that this is a new development.

Petes يقول...

Lee neglects to notice that Gadaffi has been promising to up the ante since day one. Now he acts all surprised when it happens.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
Nah, didn't neglect to notice that; it's just that I don't take anything Khadhafi says at face value.  He could easily have been bluffing.  For instance:

      "Tripoli residents seemed happy to ignore
      such reports on Sunday and chose to accept
      Colonel Qaddafi’s narrative — that his loyalists
      were at the gates of the rebels’ headquarters in
      the eastern city of Benghazi, or were in control of
      it already, or had captured the rebels’ top leader.
"

RhusLancia يقول...

Alrighty then. I'll go on thinking Ahmed would dislike being bombed or strafed to some degree more than he'd dislike the US or anyone's help in preventing it. Let it be an article of faith or an illogical slap against an ironclad lack of evidence. I think if we look hard and long enough, or simply wait, we'd be able to find that Libyan saying this, or this Libyan saying that.

Yes, Marxus, you have a point about arming them. As we've seen, if the US gives them so much as a swiss army knife, then we are responsible for each individual's ultimate actions for the rest of their lives. Something like that, right, Bruno?

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

   
      "I think if we look hard and long enough, or
      simply wait, we'd be able to find that Libyan
      saying this, or this Libyan saying that.
"

Yep, probably, but…  Still gotta deal with the fact that the rebel council sent that puffed up ex-Khadhafi military man out talk to the cameras and tell us he didn't even want weapons from the Evil Merkins, much less Merkin involvment in the action.  Gotta assume the vote went his way or he'd not have been the one sent out to do the talkin’.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
By the way, Rhus, I guess I should take that last post of yours as an admission that you never could find a Libyan who'd say out loud that he'd take help even from the Evil Merkins?  That's probably what your ‘simply wait’ thing is about isn't it?  You're waitin’ for them to change their minds ‘bout that.

Petes يقول...

For someone who claims not to be a wingnut, Lee certainly gets mighty pissed at America being referred to as part of the collective "international community". If it comforts you any, nobody mentioned Oirland or Sweden or Sahff Efrica by name either.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
Lame Petes.  Not worth the obvious response.  You'll have to try again.

RhusLancia يقول...

I haven't been looking, Lee. Should I stumble on one I doubt I'll post it here. That's how convinced I am that they wouldn't mind Merkin air cover as much as you think, given the alternatives.

Here's a related quote from another rebel leader, if you prefer.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "I haven't been looking, Lee."

Probably saved yourself a massive waste of time there.

      "That's how convinced I am that they wouldn't
      mind Merkin air cover…
"

Ah, yes, belief without evidence, indeed, belief in spite of the available evidence to the contrary.  The very definition of faith itself.  And yet, Petes is still trying to portray me as the ideologue here.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
Well, I'm outta here for a while now.  Bruno couldn't be prompted to more foolishness.  Petes is just bein’ surly and often stupid.  Rhus has retreated to faith.  And Lynnette won't be 'round for a while yet.  And I got rain comin’ tomorrow, so better do some stuff today.  I'll check back later.

Petes يقول...

Thank God. The troll has retreated back under his bridge.

RhusLancia يقول...

Rhus started and ended with opinion...

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

[Lee C} And, just by the way… The fact that those rebels who just might be able to grudgingly accept help from the Evil Merkins still can't say it out loud indicates fairly clearly that they're vastly outnumbered amongst Libyans in general.

*looks at Lee in amusement*

And which Libyans would those be?

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

[Lynnette] I see my remark about Obama's ‘right side of history’ comment has irritated you.

[Lee] Think that's what got my attention do ya? Well, I was arguing against a knee-jerk resort to a no-fly zone several days before you made that remark, clear back to the prior thread. But, I presume you'll explain that fact away somehow.

Nah, there's no point.

[Lynnette] They will take help from whoever offers it…. This is the Libyan version of Bruno's ‘plausible deniability’.

[Lee] You faith in that, apparently as some sort of revealed truth, is as unwarranted as it appears to be absolute.

Revealed truth? Kind of like the word from above? Hmmmm...well, no. More like faith in a person's reaction when he is threatened with death. It's a huge motivating factor.

[Rebel commander] I say to the Americans, keep your weapons; you made need them somewhere else. We can manage on our own.

Maybe, maybe not. Personally, I would like to see them manage on their own. However, I wouldn't want to bet against the precedent that Gadhafi has set in previous crackdowns.

[Lee] An unprovoked attack against Khadhafi, the recognized head of the Libyan government, is an attack on Libya.

By whose recognition? It appears that is somewhat up in the air at the moment.

[Lee] Reagan had the advantage of an exception, precedent long set, ‘cause Khadhafi had ordered an attack on American servicemen, and, as Commander-in-Chief, he could order a retaliation without having to go to Congress and without it being considered the initiation of war. (Our guys do get to shoot back.)

Does that mean an attack on any American within Libya by Gadhafi's forces would constitute justification for a response on our part?

[Lee] I have not argued against providing arms, ammo, and/or supplies to the rebels. That's a whole ‘nother question.

Oh. Hmmm...so what if when we sent arms to the rebels we accidentally dropped a bomb or two on Gadhafi's head? You know, just an oops kind of thing?

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

But in all seriousness now, I can understand Marcus' concern about arming people we don't know. Which is why I mentioned earlier that I didn't forget Afghanistan. Mobil weapons like Stingers may be a cheap immeditate solution, but they may pose a problem later on if they fall into the wrong hands. Having said that, I don't know how available they already are on the black market.

As to the intimidation factor of a no-fly zone, I agree that wouldn't be an issue. Except for Gadhafi's pilots flying his planes or helicopters. Obviously it would give them pause.

But, if Obama is going to stand up and say Gadhafi needs to step down, he will have to back it up with something, and it does need to be intimidating. Gadhafi is no push over. But his mercenaries may be.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "Rhus started and ended with opinion..."

Can't see that calling it ‘an opinion’ rather than ‘a belief’ makes much of a difference.  Still based in faith.  Perhaps calling it an opinion indicates a certain shakiness to the faith, but a matter of faith it still be.

             ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
        "And which Libyans would those be?"

Not sure whether you mean to assign ‘those Libyans’ to the ones who might be willing to accept help from the Evil Merkins, or whether you mean to assign that terminology to the rest of the Libyans who vastly outnumber the first category.  I mentioned ‘those rebels’ and ‘Libyans in general’.  Your concatenation of the two categories, however much it might have amused you to indulge in it, leaves me a touch confused at what you thought you were merging together there.
Pick one category or the other and make the assignment, and I'll go with it.  I'm not particular on the subject.

             ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
      "More like faith in a person's reaction when he
      is threatened with death. It's a huge motivating
      factor.
"

It has occurred to me that during those moments when a rebel is staring up at a hostile aircraft doing the hostile thing, he may indeed have a momentary pause to consider his prior opposition to Evil Merkins involvement.  But, those moments are few and fleeting.  Most of war is tedium, occasionally punctuated by moments of terror, as the very old description puts it.  I'm not putting my bets on foxhole conversions being permanent or lasting.

      "By whose recognition? It appears that is
      somewhat up in the air at the moment.
"

That's a request for an irrelevant argument, as an unprovoked attack on any Libyan inside Libya is likewise an act of war.

      "Does that mean an attack on any American
      within Libya by Gadhafi's forces would constitute
      justification for a response on our part?
"

The term ‘a response’ is quite broad enough to get an affirmative answer to your question as posed.  I think you want to tighten up your question though.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
Perhaps not an ‘irrelevant’ argument, but an unnecessary and extraneous argument at least.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

   
      "But, if Obama is going to stand up and say
      Gadhafi needs to step down, he will have to back
      it up with
something."

Are we to presume that you mean that Obama needs to back it up with something unconstitutional, something like committing acts of war without congressional authorization?  Something like ordering up a no-fly zone he has no authority to impose?

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "The troll has retreated."

And here ya are, imagining up the glorious ending with yourself as victorious and your enemy in full retreat.  You're soundin’ more and more like Bruno by the day.

Jeffrey يقول...

Sheriff Lee C. has had more than one shot of whiskey at Kurdo's Wild West Saloon today.

And we got Brunhilda dancing on the bar, flailing her skirts about. Brunhilda's face is shot to hell (way past Botox relief), but the old girl can still kick up those high-heeled laced boots.

*

Petes يقول...

[Lee C]: "You're soundin’ more and more like Bruno by the day."

And you're soundin' more like An Italian with the petty ad hominems and the hobbyhorse arguments (not to mention the total blunders such as Libyans not bein' Africans :-)

Anyways, enough of entertaining this trollery ... I've learned my lesson (yet again).

Petes يقول...

The BBC reports that a NATO-enforced no-fly-zone is in planning. (No, they didn't mention any particular NATO member by name).

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

   
      "…Libyans not bein' Africans."

I presume these are the same Libyans whom you were calling ‘Libyan Arabs’ until it belatedly occurred to you that that ‘Libyan Arabs’ worked fine for me?
Or do you have some other Libyans in mind?

Petes يقول...

^
Troll alert.

RhusLancia يقول...

* facepalm *

RhusLancia يقول...

I saw it reported that the Brits were working with the French on an NFZ, and also (CNN I think) that the Brits, French, and Merkins were working on it.

Also, that NATO AWACs planes were already over Libya, and were now 24 hrs vs 10 prior.

Also also, that the Arab Gulf States were now calling for an NFZ.

RhusLancia يقول...

1714The BBC's Pascale Harter has been gauging public opinion in the rebel-held city of Benghazi. "The Libyans who want to get rid of Colonel Gaddafi do want a form of outside help and they'll tell you they want it now. The help they want is a no-fly zone to prevent air attacks against them," she says. "In fact, they want to know why the United States and EU aren't already taking steps."

I feel totally vindicated. May I have my opinion now, please?

RhusLancia يقول...

The same bbc updates page has several unconfirmed rumours (British spelling) about Khadafi negotiating his own exit.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "I feel totally vindicated."

You feel totally vindicated by a twitter entry?  Faith is a wonderful thing, is it not?  (I gotta wonder if the author even realizes that the EU has no military capability whatsoever.)

      "May I have my opinion now, please?
"

I was ready to acknowledge you were unshakable in your faith (dispute about the actual facts still pending) and move on past that at 12:53 AM, supra, roughly 20 hours before your request here.  What else do you want?

             ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

      "The same bbc updates page has several
      unconfirmed rumours (British spelling) abousy ;rsdy t
      Khadafi negotiating his own exit.
"

‘Spect that's as true as your vindication is valid?  Or is the one more true than the other?

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

    
      "abousy ;rsdy t"  ??  WTF?

Something glitched on the cut and paste.  No clue here what.

RhusLancia يقول...

Lee C.: "You feel totally vindicated by a twitter entry?"

You mean a streaming update from the Beeb? More than I needed.

I actually scrolled up earlier to get a name and a link from your guy who did not call out for the Merkins, but I found neither. All I wanted to know is if it was Ali Suleiman so I could compare it to this:

"We don't want a foreign military intervention, but we do want a no-fly zone, said rebel fighter Ali Suleiman. "We are all waiting for one," he added. The rebels can take on "the rockets and the tanks, but not Gadhafi's air force" he said.

I notice, as you do, that he didn't say who he did or didn't want to do the NFZ. Or this:

"We are waiting for the no fly zone," Buchlega [A rebel fighter] said at the end of the day's fighting. And then, in English, to better reach his American audience, he said: "Where is the United States?"

Now, I do know that Libyan geography education is only slightly better than it is in Merka, so the correct "Lee C." answer to his question, naturally and undeniably, is: "To the west of you, dummy!!"

RhusLancia يقول...

Lee C: "‘Spect that's as true as your vindication is valid? Or is the one more true than the other?"

It is true that there are rumours, yes. Now more widely reported here and here.

You know what might persuade him a bit? An NFZ...

Not that I can quote Khadafi on that, mind you.

RhusLancia يقول...

The BeebFeed also reports the Souff Ifrican preznit weighing in on the side of the regime, it seems:

1755Libyan TV has highlighted what it said were remarks made by South African President Jacob Zuma in a phone conversation with Col Gaddafi, BBC Monitoring reports. It quoted Mr Zuma as calling on the African Union to "take decisive action and uncover the conspiracy that Libyan is facing". It also quoted him as "stressing the need not to depend on tendentious reports circulated by foreign media outlets" and the need to listen to the Libyan media in this regard.

Bruno يقول...

[lee] "I should take that last post of yours [rhus] as an admission that you never could find a Libyan who'd say out loud that he'd take help even from the Evil Merkins?"

More LEE crap. I've already posted quotes by Libyans who want a no fly zone. Must be nice to make it up as you go along, eh?

[petes] "Lee certainly gets mighty pissed at America being referred to as part of the collective "international community""
[lee] "lame"

I'm guessing that this is defeat # 3127942164 for the simian?

[lee] "an unprovoked attack on any Libyan inside Libya is likewise an act of war."
[lee] "you mean that Obama needs to back it up with something unconstitutional, something like committing acts of war without congressional authorization?"

You mean, like the attack on Iraq?

Lee C.: "You feel totally vindicated by a twitter entry?"
[rhus] You mean a streaming update from the Beeb? More than I needed.

defeat # 3127942165

Furthermore:

[bruno] So then why do they hate America?
[lee] All them Arabs in the streets and they're not chanting anti-American slogans.

[times passes by, allowing him to forget his previous statements]

[lee] The simple matter of fact is that the Libyans don't like Americans.

Q.E.D. ...

:)

Bruno يقول...

Wow, the simian sure is flailing about today.

Bruno يقول...

[jeffrey] "Brunhilda's face is shot to hell (way past Botox relief), but the old girl can still kick up those high-heeled laced boots. "

I can dance with the best of them, son. Good to see that the drunken (and evil) clown slouched in the corner clutching his gallon-jug of ripple, has awoken enough to watch the bar fight in progress.

Bruno يقول...

[rhus] "the Souff Ifrican preznit weighing in on the side of the regime"

Like I said, the ANC loves Gaddafi. He's an old pal. Myself, I can't wait to see Michael jackson's evil twin go down.

RhusLancia يقول...

Careful, he might end up being yer neighbor then ;-)

Bruno يقول...

Well, let's put it like this, Rhus, he already owns a chunk of the V&A Waterfront in cape town as well as several SA hotels. But I'm not worried, where I live is far too seedy for a, uh, classy guy like Gaddaffi. In fact, some of my neighbours might be worse.

Bruno يقول...

IRAQ News:

"After news that a “Day of Rage” in Iraq had not only drawn tens of thousands of Iraqis demanding jobs, clean water and electricity, but the wrath of security forces—at least 29 dead, a hundred journalists rounded up and beaten and police firing into crowds—one official had this to say:

“[The security forces] generally have not used force against peaceful protesters. …We support the Iraqi people’s right to freely express their political views, to peacefully protest and seek redress from their government.”

We would have expected this kind of mealy-mouthed response from nervous apologists for ousted Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in the confusing first days of his recent downfall. But this was Iraq, and the man who issued that statement was an American, Aaron Snipe, a U.S. embassy spokesman in Baghdad.

http://original.antiwar.com/vlahos/2011/03/07/why-the-iraq-protests-are-so-hard-to-watch/

Must read:

"The woman I called ‘sister’ was a child laborer under Iraq’s dictator. When the Americans came, her new horror began."

http://www.newsweek.com/2011/03/06/we-were-saddam-s-children.html

Bruno يقول...

Britain and France spearheaded a drive at the United Nations for a no-fly zone over Libya after Muammar Gaddafi's warplanes attacked rebels, while aid officials said a million people were in need. Civilians were surrounded by forces loyal to Gaddafi in two western towns, Misrata and Zawiyah, and in the east aircraft launched strikes on the rebel-held oil terminal town of Ras Lanuf. Al Jazeera television said rebels had rejected an offer by Gaddafi to hold a meeting of parliament to work out a deal under which he would step down."

http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFLDE71Q0MP20110308

Petes يقول...

Britain and France?? Aren't they in the EU? Hasn't Lee told you already that "the EU has no military capability whatsoever."?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union

Bruno يقول...

The EU are well known for being a bunch of wimpy ex-hippies. Compared to LEE's hero GWB, that is. On the other hand, having two world wars fought over one's territory can have the effect of making one cautious.

Bruno يقول...

Geez, that's quite a big military. Just looked over the article. A lot bigger than I had thought.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
First things first:  I'll take a brief moment to say hello to Bruno, who's all over the board trying to get some attention.  (Bruno @ 1:11 AM, supra).
So:  Hello there Bruno, yeah I see you jumpin’ and babblin’ and wavin’ over there."

             ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Now, on to the next thing:

      "I wanted to know is if it was Ali Suleiman…"

Ali Suleiman?  Hmmm…  Think I may have heard that name before.  He's a second cousin to Ahmed Chalabi isn't he?  On the Sunni side of the family?  You remember Chalabi don't you?  You remember how we were going to be greeted by the Iraqi with candy and flowers, all sweetness and gratitude and cheers and welcomes and parades in our honor.  Yeah, surely you remember that.

      "And then, in English, to better reach his
      American audience, he said: ‘Where is the
      United States?’
"

There ya go, took ya a couple of days of pretending to not be looking, but finally ya found one, a foot soldier who'll openly admit to being willing to accept help from the United States.  Well, one's all we needed, right? And, had to figure eventually we'd find it.  Now that the dam has broken the rest of the country will all fall in behind the foot soldier and they will all agree that unilateral action by the United States is the same thing as, or just as good as, action ordered up under the auspices of ‘the international community’. 

      "I think if we look hard and long enough, or
      simply wait, we'd be able to find that Libyan
      saying this, or this Libyan saying that.
"
      Rhuslancia @ 8:54 AM, supra

      "Yep, probably, but…"
      Lee C.@ 9:03 AM, supra

Well, there's no need for dealin’ with the ‘but’ part now is there?  You've finally found your Libyan foot soldier finally.  And now they will all line up to agree that unilateral action by the United States is the same thing as, or just as good as, action ordered up under the auspices of ‘the international community’.  (After all, ‘the international community’ actually means ‘The United States’ in both Arabic and Rhusspeak doesn't it?  I know they mean the same thing in that particular dialect of Gaelic that Petes speaks.  He's made sure I know that.)

Bruno يقول...

Scroll, scroll, scroll

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

     
There's a difference between having a paper military (or a paper agreement to pretend that the ‘the several national armed forces of the Union's 27 member states’ constitute ‘[t]he military of the European Union’) and having an actual military force with an actual military capability Petes.  You might as well be braggin’ up ‘bout the United Nation's military capability for us here.  (Man, you're gettin’ hard-core here; you'll argue ‘bout anything now won't ya?)

Bruno يقول...

Nato has begun 24-hour aerial surveillance over Libya as the alliance's military planners met in Brussels to discuss options for establishing a no-fly zone. The plans will be presented to defence ministers from the alliance's 28 member states, who are due to meet in Brussels on Thursday, but western officials are insistent that Nato will not act without the backing of the UN security council. The diplomatic discussions come amid reports that Libyan warplanes have launched at least four new air strikes near opposition positions in the oil port of Ras Lanouf in the east of the country. There has been no word on casualties."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/08/nato-libya-no-fly-zone-options

Bruno يقول...

LEE seems to think that 3500 combat aircraft and 7000 tanks and 7 million men aren't enough to deal with Gaddaffi. Is that what you think, LEE?

Bruno يقول...

Whether that force should be used, is another matter.

Bridget يقول...

They'll be screaming for a no fly zone and air support soon enough if they're not already. Doesn't mean we ought to supply it, though. Bound to hit some wedding parties and stuff like that. Besides, who are these guys? For all we know, they're head choppers and veggie bomber wannabes.

Qaddafi hasn't been much of a threat to us or his neighbors for quite some time. I see no compelling reason to get involved in yet another conflict where we can't tell the bad guys from the even worse ones. And then end up owning the whole sorry mess afterwards and hearing all about how much better things would have been had we just let the noble resistance go about their business, and how Qaddafi wasn't really that bad a guy, yada yada yada.

Bruno يقول...

Bridget has laid out a succinct case for non-intervention. What a pity she's being sarcastic and that such an attitude wasn't taken before attacking Iraq.

Bruno يقول...

To intervene or not to intervene?

What would be the purpose of establishing a no-fly zone over Libya? According to advocates, to keep Moammar Gadhafi from using his air force to attack civilians. But if Gadhafi uses tanks to crush the rebellion, as Nikita Khrushchev did in Hungary and the Chinese did in Tiananmen Square, would that be OK?What is the moral distinction between using planes to kill rebels and running over them with tanks? Do we Americans just want to see a fair fight?

To establish a secure no-fly zone, we would have to bomb radar installations, anti-aircraft batteries, missile sites, and airfields, and destroy the Libyan air force on the ground, to keep the skies secure for U.S. pilots. These would be acts of war against a nation that has not attacked us.

Where do we get the legal and moral right to do this? Has Congress, which alone has the power to declare war, authorized Barack Obama to attack Libya?
[...]
If we declare a no-fly zone, we have to attack Libya. And if we attack Libya, an act of war, we have to see that the war is won.And after that victory, we could not wash our hands and walk away. We would have to ensure the new government was democratic and a model to the Muslim world, as we are trying to do in Afghanistan and Iraq. Do we really want to adopt another Muslim country?

http://original.antiwar.com/buchanan/2011/03/07/its-their-war-not-ours/

Bruno يقول...

To intervene or not to intervene?

Is there a clear-cut case for a "responsibility to protect" justification for intervention in Libya?

Gareth Evans: Absolutely, and that's been endorsed by the Security Council, which used that language and applied some quite serious coercive measures in terms of targeted sanctions, embargoes and references to the ICC - the International Criminal Court. The question now, of course, is whether a step further should be taken to go down the military path and I think, morally, the case is overwhelming. You just have to worry about military arguments, political arguments and legal arguments, that is three hurdles to cross before we can actually get there, which I think we need to do.

Is it morally clear-cut? It wouldn't necessarily be protecting civilians? This looks like a civil war. Those people who are protesting may have been civilians, but many are clearly armed now. Would this not look like intervention in a civil war rather than protecting civilians?

GE: It has transmogrified into that, but it started out as a unequivocal one-sided bloodbath with civilians being mowed down in cold blood.
[...]
A no-fly zone is not a soft option. It does involve probably taking out air defences, bombing runways and certainly taking out aircraft that breach it. But it would make - at least according to the military analysts I've spoken to believe - a very serious difference and in a way it is the easiest way for the international community to contemplate because it does not involve boots on the ground, which of course we know from past experience can be very problematic.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12676248

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

   
      "3500 combat aircraft and 7000 tanks and 7
      million men aren't enough to deal with Gaddaffi.
      Is that what you think, LEE?
"

I think you're confused.  I think you've confused the paper military of the E.U. for something actual and real.  (And I suspect those numbers you just gave may be for combined NATO member military strengths, not for the E.U. and may include our military forces too--don't know that for sure; don't know where you got the numbers, but it's an opening suspicion.)

Bruno يقول...

So I take it that LEE's position is that the EU doesn't have the military might to deal with Gaddafi.

IS that your position, LEE?

Bruno يقول...

Such a simple question, such difficulty!

Perhaps LEE needs a few hours to think about it!

RhusLancia يقول...

Lee.: "they will all agree that unilateral action by the United States is the same thing as, or just as good as, action ordered up under the auspices of ‘the international community’."

I never said we should be unilateral on this, quite the opposite I think.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "They'll be screaming for a no fly zone and air
      support soon enough if they're not already.
"

They've been willing to see air support from the first day Bridget.  The rebel council in Benghazi originally specified that casualties on the ground be strictly limited to Khadhafi's mercenaries.  However, they've liberaled up some on their conditions since then.  (And, of course, as Rhus and Petes and Lynnette will assure us, when they ask for air support and a no-fly zone from 'the international community’, they actually mean that they want it under an American flag, ‘the international community’ and ‘the United States’ being equivalent terms in both Arabic and Rhusspeak, and at least one dialect of Gaelic.)

RhusLancia يقول...

I'm with Gareth. Like the one guy said, the rebels seem able to deal with anything but the air attacks. So let them, and let the Libyans have their country back.

Regarding air defenses & etc., if there's already AWACS planes above Libya 24hrs day, aren't they already at risk?

Equivalent? No. Inclusive of? Yes.

Petes يقول...

Lee seems to be confused about equivalence and superset relationships. No surprise that he is both mathematically and linguistically challenged.

For his education: international community = comhphobal idirnáisiúnta, and United States of America = Stáit Aontaithe Mheiriceá, with little variation across any dialects of Gaelic.

(Blogger word verification for this entry was "noinglis"... how apt :-)

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "I never said we should be unilateral on this,
      quite the opposite I think.
"

Then I honestly do not understand what the fuck you think you're arguing about.  (I know what Petes is arguing about, anything and everything, he's just a grudge slinkin’ ‘round tryin’ to get even somehow, a Gaelic Bruno type, on the prowl.)
I've got serious reservations about the efficacy of a no-fly zone; I suspect it'll not do much good; I suspect that Khadhafi's air assets aren't really having much of an effect on the progress of the rebellion, I suspect the rebels are bitchin’ bout air strikes which keep missing their targets (those guys just aren't any good) as an excuse for when they fade back from superior ground firepower (not calling them cowards; but they're way overmatched by the tanks and artillery).  I'm not sure what effect the helicopters might be having, but I've not heard of them turning a battle yet to date either.
Reservations aside, I've already acknowledged that, politically, for entirely political, public-relations reasons, we can't hold back on contributing all we got to put into it, to a no-fly zone if somebody'll put an international flag on it.  U.N. works; NATO works, even the Arab League, if they got their own flag.  If there's an international no-fly zone going up, we have to be in on it; we have to contribute honest strength to it; even if it's not going to turn the progress of the rebellion, for political, PR reasons, we gotta be there; we gotta be in on it.  Even if, militarily, it's not gonna change a thing.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "Lee seems to be confused about equivalence
      and superset relationships.
"

Nope, rather, Lee knows that when the E.U. has to get unanimous agreement from 28 different heads of state to deploy into harm's way (I can already see your quibble developing re: ‘heads of state’, so don't think you're going to surprise me with that), then one does not have a superset.  One has inertia; one has an object at rest which is going to damn well stay at rest.

Jeffrey يقول...

Dog Bites Man.

China cool to no-fly zone proposal.

Any United Nations-authorized action against Libya must ensure it helps the country return to stability as soon as possible, China said on Tuesday in response to British and French proposals for a no-fly zone.

The North African country's sovereignty must also be respected, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu told a regular news conference.

China wants countries to focus on implementing the current U.N. Security Council resolution on Libya and to "urge all sides involved to settle the conflict and calm the situation through dialogue and other peaceful means," Jiang said.


I love that: "through dialogue and other peaceful means."

Riiiiiiiight.

This is what Jiang Yu was really saying: North Korea's sovereignty must be respected.

*

Bridget يقول...

I'm not being sarcastic, Bruno. I viewed Saddam as a threat to us and to his neighbors, and would note that Iraq is notably absent from the list of troublemakers in the region. Qaddafi hasn't made much trouble since Reagan nearly got him,and less since Saadam was pulled out of his rat hole. So we don't have a dog in this fight. I wish the rebels all the best, but I see very bad things in store for Libya pretty much no matter what happens, and I must confess, to a bit of anticipatory schadenfreude when it goes to he'll in a hand basket and nary a GI in sight.

Truth Seeker يقول...

^

Yeah, but you're not exactly a regional expert so we won't lose too much sleep.

Oh and,

I must confess, to a bit of anticipatory schadenfreude when it goes to he'll in a hand basket and nary a GI in sight.

What a horrible person you are.

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

Time got away from me. I meant to have a more complete comment.

Anyway, looking at the arguments presented, it appears that we may be closer in thought than it might at first seem.

Except, I do understand Bridget's hesitation. Once bitten, twice shy, and dealing with flak from the Bruno's of the world can be disheartening to say the least.

I'll be back later, hopefully.

غير معرف يقول...

@ ZEYAD.

Back to Iraq, 'fwee, democwatic, and respectful of human rights', thanks to the oul' United States of Ahmehwicah.


'Iraq Shuts Office of Protest Organizers':

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/08/world/middleeast/08iraq.html?_r=1&ref=world


'Iraqis stage 'day of regret' one year after celebrated elections':

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/0307/Iraqis-stage-day-of-regret-one-year-after-celebrated-elections


'Iraqi Protests Make Washington Squirm':

http://original.antiwar.com/vlahos/2011/03/07/why-the-iraq-protests-are-so-hard-to-watch/

Lynnette In Minnesota يقول...

Lee says we have no legal authority to intervene in Libya, Bridget says we don't have a dog in this fight, Marcus says we might be arming people who will turn those arms on us. All very good arguments for non-intervention.

But, what responsibility do we have as human beings? Can we really stand by and let people be crushed just for the desire of a better life without a man who cares nothing for them? Can we stand by and watch another Rwanda unfold?

For years the world has tried to establish some sort of baseline for more humane behavior, even in times of conflict, via the Geneva Conventions, or as Gareth Evans mentioned, the International Criminal Court. To allow a man such as Gadhafi to get away with attacking and killing his own people is to negate those efforts. And it is to negate what the founding fathers of my country fought for.

Bridget يقول...

The schadenfreude isn't directed to the people of Libya, truth seeker. I wish them all the best, although I expect the worst. It's directed at all those who have been ranting for years that the US is at the root of all of Iraq's problems, Saddam wasn't really all that bad, women had it so much better, all Iraqis used to love each other, the people of Iraq could have gotten rid of Saddam all by themselves, the noble resistance wanted democracy for all Iraqis, yada yada yada. I fully expect the impending disaster in Libya, to demonstrate that violent regime change can lead to chaos, refugees, crime, terrorism, and mass conflict in the complete absence of the US.

Bridget يقول...

I almost used the phrase once bitten twice shy myself, Lynnette.

غير معرف يقول...

^^

Puking matter, both the revolting criminals Bridget and Lynnette.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "Lee says we have no legal authority to intervene
      in Libya…
"

Incorrect.  I said Obama has no legal authority to order up a no-fly zone against LIbya.  That authority is vested in Congress.  Neither is there any recognized exception extant (not that I can see anyway) which would allow him to take such action absent congressional authorization.

Petes يقول...

Lee says Libyans aren't Africans.

Lee says no Libyan rebels have called on help from the USA.

Lee says the EU has no military capability.

Lee has been embarrassingly wrong on all counts...

... but he still keeps asserting he's right regardless. And then he accuses me of arguing "anything and everything". What a troll!

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
How many times is it gonna take Petes
How many times you gonna try to get me to bite at that ‘Lee's a troll’ bit, before you give up on that one and change bait?

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

      "[Khadhafi's] guys abruptly cut off the routes
      out to Tunisia the other day; just shut the exodus
      down completely for about a day; although it's
      picked back up again some I hear. They may
      have been just checking to see whether they
      could get a handle on the threat.
"
      Lee C. @ 7:18 AM, supra

We found out what happened there.  Turns out Khadhafi's guys grabbed all the fleeing foreigners they could grab and hauled them back into Libya and forced them to go back to work, at the point of a gun.  MSNBC.com.
I think that's called ‘slavery’ in most in most all Western nations.

      ""South Africa…happen[s] to love Gadhaffi."
      Bruno @ 5:08 AM, previous thread

RhusLancia يقول...

Lee C.: "Then I honestly do not understand what the f*ck you think you're arguing about."

I think it had something to do with you saying the presence of the Merkins in an NFZ would cause the rebels to join with Khadafi's forces to fight us, or some such.

RhusLancia يقول...

Today on the BeebFeed, Noam Chomsky (aka 'The Merkin Bruno') even seemed warm to the idea of an NFZ, at some point.

Bruno يقول...

I notice that LEE still hasn't managed to come to a conclusion as to whether the EU's "paper military" has enough firepower to take care of Ghaddafi.

It must be terrible to agonise over such simple "yes" or "no" decisions.

Bruno يقول...

[bridget] "I'm not being sarcastic, Bruno. I viewed Saddam as a threat to us and to his neighbors"

And Ghaddafi isn't? LOL. Maybe you ought to bone up on history a little.

[bridget] "we don't have a dog in this fight."

You didn't "have a dog" in Iraq either.

[lynnette] "Except, I do understand Bridget's hesitation. Once bitten, twice shy, and dealing with flak from the Bruno's of the world can be disheartening to say the least."

The Brunos of the world take exception to invading a country to "stop the killing" that ended decades prior. Current, actual killing is a different matter entirely. There can be a case made for intervention based on current, actual killing. Although I'm in agreement that the murkins should keep their boots out of Libya.

[rhuslancia] "Today on the BeebFeed, Noam Chomsky (aka 'The Merkin Bruno') even seemed warm to the idea of an NFZ, at some point."

There does indeed seem to be quite a lot of calls for a NFZ from the Libyans themselves. I too find the idea of a NFZ the least objectionable course of intervention. Less scope for "nation building" and "chasing the bad guys while we don't have a clue who they are" that way.

Bruno يقول...

Here is a rather good article agaist intervention:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-kenney/the-us-should-not-make-wa_b_832603.html

Bruno يقول...

Here's a blast from the past:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=gDtPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=W00DAAAAIBAJ&pg=5148,5474175&dq=libya&hl=en

Bruno يقول...

Troops loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi stepped up their counter-offensive against opposition forces last night, exercising a level of brutality not yet seen in the conflict.

Pro-Gaddafi troops used tanks and aircraft to bombard the rebel-held town of Zawiyah, 30 miles from the capital Tripoli, vowing that it was a "final battle". There were mixed reports about whether Zawiyah had fallen, but witnesses reported that the town centre had been "flattened" by the onslaught.

"Fighting is still going on now. Gaddafi's forces are using tanks. There are also sporadic air strikes," said one resident. "The situation here is very bad. Many buildings have been destroyed, including mosques. About 40 to 50 tanks are taking part in the bombardment but they could not reach the centre of the town, which is still in the control of the revolutionaries."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/rebels-bombarded-by-planes-and-tanks-in-vicious-fight-for-zawiyah-2236290.html

RhusLancia يقول...

AJ reports the rebels are offering Ghadafi 72 hrs to git out.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/201138133847222111.html

That would save a lot of trouble. Anyone think he'll take it?

Bruno يقول...

Not a chance, I think. Not while his troops are still fighting. But I heard that his forces executed 20 of their own recently because they refused to fight the rebels. Morale must be low.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

   
      "I think it had something to do with you saying
      the presence of the Merkins in an NFZ…
etc."

You might want to think again, and pick another supposed provocation to rely upon, as I never said that. 
What I did say was:

      "Notably absent from his list of folks whom he
      might want to weigh in on his side is the United
      States.  ***  Very likely, Ahmed, the guy quoted
      above, doesn't have any particular dislike for you
      personally nor any grudge to settle with you
      personally. But, you show up to help him, under
      an American flag in Libya
"
       Lee C. @ 3:46 PM, supra (emphasis added)

Bruno يقول...

I wonder if LEE managed to figure out whether the uh, "paper military" of the EU is "real" enough to deal with Ghaddafi?

I mean, for the definitive statements he put out earlier, he sure seems to be dodging the question.

Almost ... almost as if he feels he might make a fool of hisself ...

Bruno يقول...

Well, a bigger fool, that is.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
I'm reminded of an incident in Baghdad, 9 April 2003.  Cheering crowd trying to tear down a statue of Saddam in the central square in Baghdad.  Big fella with a big hammer goin’ at it to the cheers of the crowd.  Cement chunks flying through the air, but it's not gonna happen.  Big guy starts to wear down, and statue is gonna stand there for days at this rate of progress.
American tank pulls up to help and attaches a cable to the statue.  Cheers from the crowd.  Soldier puts up American flag over the face of Saddam.  Hisses and boos from the crowd.  Sodier gets the message and takes down the American flag.  Smattering of cheers from the crowd again, but still some grumbling and muttering to be noticed.  Spoiled the whole mood right there. 

Bruno يقول...

^
|

Seems to have gotten the message, methinks.

In other news:

[bruno] So then why do they hate America?
[lee] All them Arabs in the streets and they're not chanting anti-American slogans.

[times passes by, allowing him to forget his previous statements]

[lee] The simple matter of fact is that the Libyans don't like Americans.

Q.E.D. ...

:)

Marcus يقول...

It's not easy to tell for sure but it seems to me that Khadaffi loyalists may very well have the upper hand even without a no fly zone.

Sya that's the case. Say a NFZ is established and it turns out that while the protesters have more popular support and possibly more men at arms, the Khadaffi loyalists (and his mercs) have more trained troops, better weaponry and most of the tanks and artillery. What then?

Bruno يقول...

Hey, I'm not complaining.

It would just be nice if LEE could keep his stories straight.

Could this represent a genuine change of opinion?

I don't believe so.

He will say exactly the opposite thing two weeks from now.

Petes يقول...

[Lee C]: "How many times you gonna try to get me to bite at that ‘Lee's a troll’ bit, before you give up on that one and change bait?"

On the contrary, you bite every time and I'd like you to stop. Here's your big chance ... no reply necessary or wanted.

Marcus يقول...

"even without a no fly zone" should've read "even with a no fly zone"

Petes يقول...

Now on to more weighty matters.

It's official -- scientists confirm Guinness tastes best in Ireland.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0309/1224291667459.html

Bruno يقول...

[marcus] "Say a NFZ is established and it turns out that while the protesters have more popular support and possibly more men at arms, the Khadaffi loyalists (and his mercs) have more trained troops, better weaponry and most of the tanks and artillery. What then?"

Then the question of escalating into actual airstrikes against Ghadaffi targets raises its head. If that doesn't work, then the spectre of boots on the ground looms.

Not very nice options either way.

Which is why I am typically anti-intervention.

On the other hand, if Ghadaffi's goons start razing towns a la Fallujah, maybe a formal intervention IS necessary.

Bruno يقول...

Those were Irish scientists, I bet.

John يقول...

Shameous: "It's official -- scientists confirm Guinness tastes best in Ireland."

I've always known that. Although I think you can still say, without hesitation, that Guinness still tastes pretty good no matter what other country you're drinking it in.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

Got Bruno and Petes both workin’ their bait at once.  Both workin’ it hard too.  Maybe we can get them competing openly?  Get ‘em to compete for who could claim the first solid bite on their particular bit of bait, to the exclusion of the other.  Wouldn't that be great fun?

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
      "[I]t seems to me that Khadaffi loyalists may very
      well have the upper hand even without a no fly
      zone.
"

Yeah, I quite agree.  In fact, I mentioned that very real possibility earlier.  So, if history is any guide, you may be about to come in for some profuse praise from Bruno and Petes.
Enjoy.

Petes يقول...

[Petes]: "On the contrary, you bite every time and I'd like you to stop."
[Lee]: "Get ‘em to compete for who could claim the first solid bite on their particular bit of bait"

LOLZ. Not only can Lee not stop biting like a shark in a barrel of baby seals, he wants to magic up a new distinction between a "bite" and a "solid bite". Truly trollicious.

Petes يقول...

[Marcus]: "Then the question of escalating into actual airstrikes against Ghadaffi targets raises its head. If that doesn't work, then the spectre of boots on the ground looms."

How about the option of covert help to the rebels. It wouldn't go down well with the Brunos of the world of course, once any single rebel could be shown not to have lived a saintly life, but it would be a way of backing a pony in the race without overt commitment of "boots on the ground".

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
Well, Marcus, I may have squelched the possibility for you to receive profuse praise.  Sorry ‘bout that.  But, on the other hand, I may have launched the fun competion successfully. 
Petes has made what may be his first moves versus Bruno.

Bruno يقول...

There's a bit of a difference, Pete, between backing Gulbuddin Hekmatyar or the contras or the Badr Brigade, and helping out Libyan rebels.

That said, if the consensus is for intervention (assuming we want Ghadaffi out, and assuming we have a right to) then the least prickly way is to start with airpower and work from there.

Bruno يقول...

LEE has bigger fish to fry than trying to stir up muck between myself and Pete: he needs to decide:

DOES the EU have the firepower to deal with Ghaddafi or DOESN'T it?

Bruno يقول...

BTW, Pete replied to my statement as being posted by Marcus.

   Lee C.  ―  U.S.A.       يقول...

 
And Bruno tries to muscle in ahead of Petes, goin’ for capital letters for notice, all the while pretending he's not tryin’ to muscle in ahead of Petes.
Great fun; great fun.

Bruno يقول...

Seems like your brain is all tuckered out today, LEE.

Maybe I should give you a WEEK to think it over eh?

Bruno يقول...

Lemme guess: the old age home has closed its doors for visiting hour, the kids never came again, and now the simian is having great fun; great fun; by trolling an Iraqi's blog.

Petes يقول...

Bruno, apologies for misattributing your earlier comment.

"...(assuming we want Ghadaffi out, and assuming we have a right to) then the least prickly way..."

Talk about noncommittal! So tell us -- do YOU want Gaddafi out? Do you think ANYONE has a right to want him out (and if so, who)? And is there any chance that helping oust him might actually be GOOD, as opposed to "least worst" or "non-prickly".

Petes يقول...

[Lee C]: "Great fun; great fun."

Translation: chomp, chomp.

Petes يقول...

[Bruno]: "There's a bit of a difference, Pete, between backing Gulbuddin Hekmatyar or the contras or the Badr Brigade, and helping out Libyan rebels."

That's what you say NOW. Gaddafi himself tells us the rebels are al-Qaeda. Who's to say you won't be back here, after he's deposed and hanged, telling us how the rascally but lovable old despot warned us but we wouldn't listen.

Bruno يقول...

[petes] "So tell us -- do YOU want Gaddafi out?"

In short: yes. But there are also people that I'd like to punch in the face but I can't, because it's against the law.

[petes] "And is there any chance that helping oust him might actually be GOOD"

Sure. I think he needs to go. But I'm worried that

(a) this sets a precedent for folks overthrowing other folks they don't like and

(b) I simply don't trust the murkins and their friends at all especially after the recent fiasco in Iraq and to a lesser extent Afghanistan.

That's why I'm non-committal. I'd say that if a no fly zone would guarantee that he'd be kicked out by the rebel Libyans, then maybe that's the way to go, particularly considering the rapidly gathering consensus in the region.

But what would be disastrous to happen would be ineffective airstikes leading to entanglement on the ground and finally a situation like Afghanistan or Iraq where there are Marines setting up roadblocks and mowing down families.

‏«الأقدم ‏‹أقدم   ‏1 – 200 من 263   ‏›أحدث ‏أحدث»